touble getting wife on board

[dg_moore]

Like my signature says,

Life is not the way it's supposed to be, it's the way it is.

There are some things you can't change, no matter how much you shake your fist at the sky. You learn to live with them or else just go bonkers.

[justanotherdrumber]

Why would you want to have sex with somebody who doesn't want to have sex with you (or presumably with anybody else)? I have always believed sex to be a mutual activity.

so the default is ne person "decides for you" that your sex life is over? Obviously sex is a biological function and its also a component of a romantic relationship. the ideal scenario is two people who are madly in love and cant keep their hands off of one and other, but where that does not exist there must be a compromise.... or one person has to lose. From what I have observed and experienced: both lose (eventually) .... and if there is a family involved, the kids get to lose too. In my opinion, the only way a middle aged married man with a family ever could compete with a young ambitious man in the work place, was that the married guy had access to regular sex from his stay-at-home-wife and the single guy had to go devote some portion of time to procuring female companionship (dates, parties, activities, bars not to mention drinking on the weekends to get up the courage to hit on women, etc...) a single young man is in a position to work back to back 20 hour days to get ahead (if he is so inclined) a family man cant compete with that. .....but eventually the single guy has to throw "some cycles" at his social life. When the wife puts her husband in the position of now stepping out (and throwing those same cycles at procuring women) who wins?

....this is just my bias. I was in a sexless marriage, so I empathize with some of these posts, but disagree with some of the "wisdom" which I see in the rationalization of the "withholding of sex". When my kids were little: i sucked it up and went many years without sex. In another chapter, when I was working 2 jobs to get us into our dream-house: she had obligatory sex with me...(and honestly : "it wasn't half bad"). In yet another chapter, (after we got into dream-house) she cut the sex off again : and I had girlfriends and a sexlife outside the marriage (that stole cycles from both my career and my family) . Now the kids are grown and were getting divorced....and she like many other women in these scenarios does not yet realize where she has landed herself. Woman in a bygone era, understood that a middle aged women was not "holding a very big stick" and it might be best to try to keep the husband around. . today they all still think their in their 20's and that the world is waiting, to once again, "roll out the red carpet" for them. I don't think my wife (or these other women in these stories here) gets it. A 50 - 60 year old women, is "not the prize". Their options are few and far in-between.

Yeah, N0T .. "everyone" gets it ...
... ,however; "some" D0 !

It's not that they think that they're still in their 20's and they're still the prize.

They're well aware of their age. 20-30 years ago the mortgage was fresh, payments were due, the kids were growing (and headed provided for). Today, house is paid off, kids are grown, possibly even graduated from college.

The "prize" N0W is harvesting 1/2 a Pension & Social Security benefits to provide for the balance of their lives.

They're through putting up with your sh#t and using every excuse in the book not to fuck you anymore !

SEX and companionship aren't the same priority that they were in youth.

More and more women are actually cohabiting with another female these days to help make ends meet, rather than "submit" to a Male sexually. They can always make a quick connection with some guy IF/when they ever feel a need for some cock , "on their terms".

[Lost Sheep]

Throughout the Judeo-Christian diaspora, girls have been indoctrinated to resist the (never-ending) efforts of boys to have sex with them. That attitude may be so ingrained that it may be hard for a grown woman to free herself.

Some women depart from that stricture on their own. Blessed is the man in the company of such a woman. Most women only lose that inhibition with a man who has eased his way into her "inner circle" of trust and intimacy. Twice blessed is that man, for while she gives him her all, she will not easily give it up to anyone else but him.

Many men whose posts I have read on this thread seem to have found themselves in the company of a woman in another category and must ease through her barrier gates for every intimate encounter each time anew. But, I say to you, that it is possible. You must know her and woo her, but it is possible. Whether it is worth it or not is for each you to decide.

How to do it is also something for you to search your soul to decide. I do it with kindness and respect. I find the cooperation she responds with is well worth my efforts (and I feel better about myself than if I did it with any other approach). I find, a woman's active enthusiasm for sex with me is a lot more exciting than that woman's mere tolerance towards sex with me.

I trust this post does not come across as judgmental. It is just what I have found that works best for me in all the dimensions of my relationships with my sexual partners.

Having successfully avoided the institution of marriage for over 50 years, I now consider myself qualified to give advice to anyone on the subject.

[3rd-Nut]

Throughout the Judeo-Christian diaspora, girls have been indoctrinated to resist the (never-ending) efforts of boys to have sex with them. That attitude may be so ingrained that it may be hard for a grown woman to free herself.

Some women depart from that stricture on their own. Blessed is the man in the company of such a woman. Most women only lose that inhibition with a man who has eased his way into her "inner circle" of trust and intimacy. Twice blessed is that man, for while she gives him her all, she will not easily give it up to anyone else but him.

Many men whose posts I have read on this thread seem to have found themselves in the company of a woman in another category and must ease through her barrier gates for every intimate encounter each time anew. But, I say to you, that it is possible. You must know her and woo her, but it is possible. Whether it is worth it or not is for each you to decide.

How to do it is also something for you to search your soul to decide. I do it with kindness and respect. I find the cooperation she responds with is well worth my efforts (and I feel better about myself than if I did it with any other approach). I find, a woman's active enthusiasm for sex with me is a lot more exciting than that woman's mere tolerance towards sex with me.

I trust this post does not come across as judgmental. It is just what I have found that works best for me in all the dimensions of my relationships with my sexual partners.

Having successfully avoided the institution of marriage for over 50 years, I now consider myself qualified to give advice to anyone on the subject.

Lost,
I have been trying to get into My wife's "Inner circle" for over 40 years. I would have to agree with what you say. She says that her mother's only sex conversation with her was " Eeeew...sex is messy!" With no prostate or ejaculate it is not messy anymore.
So my big question is how do you get in to a woman's inner sanctum?

[Lost Sheep]

Lost,
I have been trying to get into My wife's "Inner circle" for over 40 years. I would have to agree with what you say. She says that her mother's only sex conversation with her was " Eeeew...sex is messy!" With no prostate or ejaculate it is not messy anymore.
So my big question is how do you get in to a woman's inner sanctum?

I have heard (in print and from women of my acquaintance) that one place to begin foreplay is by the man doing the dishes after dinner and allowing the woman (presumably who cooked) to relax, unwind and develop appreciation for her man who is so considerate. (A relaxed woman is a seduceable woman and a woman tired after a day of housekeeping is not.)

Then there is this thread in the Sexuality 2.0 subform:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10909&p=100192
wherein Reggieman gives this advice.

I believe some women are just not into sex. They engage when the relationship is new but then fade out as the newness wears off. It may be that their testosterone is lower than average, cultural restrictions, mama's advice as to what is a "bad" girl or dissatisfaction in the relationship. Many men will fuck no matter what mood they are in but many women, if not all, have to be in that very narrow "zone" mentally or it's a no go.In my hundreds of conversations with my wife about sex I have come to believe her concept of sex is totally different than what it is to most men.

There is an Australian lady sex therapist whose videos I've watch who describes two types of women. The first are "saucy ripe tomatoes" who are up for sex and need little coaxing. They others are referred to as "damp wood" who require lots of persuasion, warming up, etc.to get their fire started. The latter require a lot of work to get in bed. Often they can't seem to get self started, never think about sex on their own and may or may not enjoy sex once in bed. Many if not most enjoy sex once they are warmed up.

My wife is not a self-starter but once in bed and foreplay begins she will finish with terrific orgasms. Once the orgasm is over it's like sex never happened and her mind is back to other things. She can go for months without sex and when asked cannot recall how long since the last time she had sex. "Two weeks, three weeks, oh it can't have been two months, really?"

The latter remind of a story told by a Hub Zemke a fighter pilot/ace in WWII. He was assigned the task of overseeing the transfer of P-40 fighters to Northern Russia. He guided the Russian troops in assembling the boxed planes. It was cold and they had no heaters to keep the engine oil warm so the planes could be started. So, hours before each flight the ground crew would build fires on the ground under the plane's engine to warm the oil. In the sub-zero weather it took some time but finally the engine could be started.

Some women just don't come with pre-heaters.

Lay your groundwork before you even THINK about laying her.

Women respond to a lot of vastly varying stimuli. I have no idea what your relationship is like, what you have tried in the past and what "triggers" might bring up resistance, compliance or desire in your wife. It is up to you to find what will get into your wife's head BEFORE she thinks about sex that would prepare her mind to be receptive you your advances on her body. Onlyl after her mind is receptive will her body be receptive.

I may be preaching to the choir here (but I do not know anything about your particular relationship's history). So, please forgive me if I am stating the obvious.

As a general rule for most women, one must seduce her anew each time one desires her response. Show her you appreciate her totality including her sexuality (without seeming as if your only interest is her sexuality). For example, If she feels that every time you touch her tenderly, it is a prelude to an attempt at sex, she is likely to recoil at that first touch. A recipe for disaster. But (for example) if you rub her shoulders and then do not ask for further intimacy, she will wonder where your desire went. And perhaps try to kindle it. If not out of her desire, out of curiosity. Re-training her reactions is not difficult, but requires diligence, patience and attention to what is going on in her head (both her cranium AND her maidenhead).

I have also developed a rule for myself which I recommend to any man; "Ladies first" when it comes to orgasm. Or, at the very least, enough foreplay that her loins ache to be entered. Entering her before that moment of ache is telling her that you regard YOUR desire to be more important to you than HER desire. Selfish is not a turn-on.

Again, forgive me if I state what you already know.

[justanotherdrumber]

Lost,
I have been trying to get into My wife's "Inner circle" for over 40 years. I would have to agree with what you say. She says that her mother's only sex conversation with her was " Eeeew...sex is messy!" With no prostate or ejaculate it is not messy anymore.
So my big question is how do you get in to a woman's inner sanctum?

I have heard (in print and from women of my acquaintance) that one place to begin foreplay is by the man doing the dishes after dinner and allowing the woman (presumably who cooked) to relax, unwind and develop appreciation for her man who is so considerate. (A relaxed woman is a seduceable woman and a woman tired after a day of housekeeping is not.)

Then there is this thread in the Sexuality 2.0 subform:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10909&p=100192
wherein Reggieman gives this advice.

I believe some women are just not into sex. They engage when the relationship is new but then fade out as the newness wears off. It may be that their testosterone is lower than average, cultural restrictions, mama's advice as to what is a "bad" girl or dissatisfaction in the relationship. Many men will fuck no matter what mood they are in but many women, if not all, have to be in that very narrow "zone" mentally or it's a no go.In my hundreds of conversations with my wife about sex I have come to believe her concept of sex is totally different than what it is to most men.

There is an Australian lady sex therapist whose videos I've watch who describes two types of women. The first are "saucy ripe tomatoes" who are up for sex and need little coaxing. They others are referred to as "damp wood" who require lots of persuasion, warming up, etc.to get their fire started. The latter require a lot of work to get in bed. Often they can't seem to get self started, never think about sex on their own and may or may not enjoy sex once in bed. Many if not most enjoy sex once they are warmed up.

My wife is not a self-starter but once in bed and foreplay begins she will finish with terrific orgasms. Once the orgasm is over it's like sex never happened and her mind is back to other things. She can go for months without sex and when asked cannot recall how long since the last time she had sex. "Two weeks, three weeks, oh it can't have been two months, really?"

The latter remind of a story told by a Hub Zemke a fighter pilot/ace in WWII. He was assigned the task of overseeing the transfer of P-40 fighters to Northern Russia. He guided the Russian troops in assembling the boxed planes. It was cold and they had no heaters to keep the engine oil warm so the planes could be started. So, hours before each flight the ground crew would build fires on the ground under the plane's engine to warm the oil. In the sub-zero weather it took some time but finally the engine could be started.

Some women just don't come with pre-heaters.

Lay your groundwork before you even THINK about laying her.

Women respond to a lot of vastly varying stimuli. I have no idea what your relationship is like, what you have tried in the past and what "triggers" might bring up resistance, compliance or desire in your wife. It is up to you to find what will get into your wife's head BEFORE she thinks about sex that would prepare her mind to be receptive you your advances on her body. Onlyl after her mind is receptive will her body be receptive.

I may be preaching to the choir here (but I do not know anything about your particular relationship's history). So, please forgive me if I am stating the obvious.

As a general rule for most women, one must seduce her anew each time one desires her response. Show her you appreciate her totality including her sexuality (without seeming as if your only interest is her sexuality). For example, If she feels that every time you touch her tenderly, it is a prelude to an attempt at sex, she is likely to recoil at that first touch. A recipe for disaster. But (for example) if you rub her shoulders and then do not ask for further intimacy, she will wonder where your desire went. And perhaps try to kindle it. If not out of her desire, out of curiosity. Re-training her reactions is not difficult, but requires diligence, patience and attention to what is going on in her head (both her cranium AND her maidenhead).

I have also developed a rule for myself which I recommend to any man; "Ladies first" when it comes to orgasm. Or, at the very least, enough foreplay that her loins ache to be entered. Entering her before that moment of ache is telling her that you regard YOUR desire to be more important to you than HER desire. Selfish is not a turn-on.

Again, forgive me if I state what you already know.

I firmly believe the problem with women "losing desire" after 50 y/o began a long time ago when a guy bought her first, "not tonight, I have a headache" excuse . Over time she perfected those excuses to the point where 30 years later, she's learned that she really doesn't need a believable excuse at all.

She is just D0NE ...!

[Lost Sheep]

On the other hand, affection comes in many forms.

It takes two to tango, but only one to sit out the dance.

If the music is rhythmic enough, memories can be compelling if those memories are good ones.

Where there is life, there is hope.

[QuestionGuy]

I come here to get and share technical info on the medical solutions, but feel compelled to post on some of these BETA discussions, because I see thousands of views and I'm terrified some young guy will assume some of this unchallenged BS must be the consensus of all "older and wiser" men. ON the contrary: On this site It often seems like there is an "inverse relationship" between "age" and "experience/knowledge" about women. The older the guy is, the more brainwashed he often seems to be.

Psychology-101:

1) Women do not get turned on by men who : ask for directions, do the dishes, "show how vulnerable they are", or in any other way display weakness. There are some very very good reasons for this, and its not really their fault.

2) You cannot ask women what turns them on, or what they want in a man (as has been suggested here). This is because they themselves do not understand: why what turns them on: "turns them on". Is anyone on this site gonna honesty say they have not seen women who will walk on hot coals for a bad-boy who offers them nothing in the way of a potential future....and then that same women will exploit and disrespect a nice-guy who supposedly did everything they "said they wanted" ?

3) supplicating yourself to women and being a doormat is not only a turn-off for the woman, its an infinite loop. The two of you get locked into co-dependency, both believing that your just one more hoop away from fixing the relationship, so she creates more hoops and you convince yourself you simply need to go the extra mile this time. Is anyone on this site gonna honestly say they have seen a guy busting his ass; and the harder he works the more abusive and demanding his wife becomes, to the point where he cant do anything right, is entitled to zero intimacy and and is pretty much guilty until proven innocent.

I'm not trying to disparaged women. I have alot of women in my life and always have. ...but I'm suggesting that one deal with the world the way it is (and not the way we want it to be) I'm in my mid fifties, slept with about 300 women, been madly in love 6 times, married twice, raised a family, and have a very successful career. If any of the thousands of lurkers out there is interested in what someone with my background thinks - its this:

Relationships of 3 to 18 months seem to be the "Sweet spot". One-night-stands are a waste of everyone's valuable time/energy, and longer relationships begin to break down as the facades and masks come off. In the beginning "you" try to show strength; and she's trying to convince you what a "perfect step-ford wife" she would make (so you'll begin to consider long term commitment). Your both flooded with hormones and endorphins. Its a total dopamine rush. Then you become inseparable. Joined at the hip. you do everything together. and at this point, neither of you can "keep up the act". The first time you "back down" because some biker wants to fight over a parking space, or she "aggressively barks out an order" at a waitress or waiter, there is a "chink in the armor" and this continues, until one of the other realizes that what we have here is two ordinary people. Not superman and Betty Crocker.

Three months seems to be a milestone, because this is where she will begin "testing" you. (she'll want more non-sexual activities, introduce family, and ask "where is this going") this is a good point to end it, if you know the situation does not have legs and you really don't want to be "a couple".

Eighteen months seems like another milestone. You decided to be a couple back at 3 months, your integrated into one and others lives, and you successfully responded to the "where is this going" question (asked at 3 months) with some vague and "sphinx-like response" (which was "good enough" for the 3-month mark). Now the phenomenon that happens here, at this point, is really fascinating to me. The relationship is now routine, and much of the initial magic is gone....but you've become comfortable and somewhat addicted to it. The good does still outweigh the bad. You are persuaded to believe that by investing a bit more, and making a bit more commitment, you can get back to "that magic time". I think this is where many of us get locked into that cycle of "jumping through hoops" that i described above. in all fairness, I'm sure women run a similar mind-hack on themselves, but i'm describing things from the male perspective. I think this is where many get engaged or married, all the while having a gut feeling that there are issues that their ignoring, but think that taking it to "this next level" will cause it all to sort itself out. I think that this is one of the toughest calls we ever have to make in our lives, and the results of what one does at this point, have long lasting ramifications.

I'm not trying to sound like a guru, and I'm not part of any "pick up artist" or "men's rights" movement. What I've written is 100% from my own experiences, observations and MOSTLY MISTAKES. Over the years, I've been the beta-symp and I've also been the ALPHA-badboy. I've taken several relationships past 18 months, and I've also decided to "cut bait" on many more at the 3 month mark. I don't mean to offend or disparage the other posters here, but i did want to offer another point of view to the younger guys. Its tough enough being a young guy in today's society . Let alone layering on erection issues. Young men are invisible and disposable (literally disposable ..as in: look who's planted in Arlington cemetery) Let me know if anyone finds my posts helpful, if not, I'm content to stick to the technical posts, and leave this relationship stuff to the "happy-wife happy-life" crowd.

[Lost Sheep]

I come here to get and share technical info on the medical solutions, but feel compelled to post on some of these BETA discussions, because I see thousands of views and I'm terrified some young guy will assume some of this unchallenged BS must be the consensus of all "older and wiser" men. ON the contrary: On this site It often seems like there is an "inverse relationship" between "age" and "experience/knowledge" about women. The older the guy is, the more brainwashed he often seems to be.

(edited for brevity)

QuestionGuy, your post shows a great deal of wisdom. I agree with all in your post except the first point.

Psychology-101:

1) Women do not get turned on by men who : ask for directions, do the dishes, "show how vulnerable they are", or in any other way display weakness. There are some very very good reasons for this, and its not really their fault.
(edited for brevity)

Depends on the woman, don't you think? The desire for an "Alpha Male" is mitigated by the desire for a compassionate provider. Some women are just emotionally smarter than others. (as are men, too).

Yet, your first point does contain some truth. Women are attracted (see your second point) by many factors, some of which they do not understand themselves. Many women are torn between the strong "Protector" and the sensitive "Provider".

P.S.
In several of my posts giving marital/relationship advice, I have advertised that "Since I have successfully avoided the institution of marriage for over 50 years, I now feel qualified to give advice on the subject to anyone." Your post begs the question, "Are you also a life-long bachelor?"

[QuestionGuy]

Depends on the woman, don't you think? The desire for an "Alpha Male" is mitigated by the desire for a compassionate provider. Some women are just emotionally smarter than others. (as are men, too)

I think it’s more like : women initially think they’re going to be the ones to "turn the badboy around". , and then they eventually "settle" for the nice-guy provider type (in much the same way as a musician who dreamed of being a rock star may eventually take a job as the manager of a music store) I think this is why we see the guy who is bending over backwards to do everything he can for his wife, yet somehow she’s got nothing good to say about him, and berates him constantly. I think the exceptional women your fantasizing about are about as common as a man who prefers homely women to hot women. We may eventually settle for a plain looking woman, because we get tired of the selfish glamour girls, but we secretly still fantasize about the hotties.

On the other hand, you’re from Anchorage, and I'm in Southern California. There used to be a saying: what's Alaska's best kept secret : Answer: THE WOMEN. The women of Anchorage are, in fact, some of the finest people I’ve ever come to know....(and we probably don’t need to go into any detail about the woman of Los Angeles).

As for your question about me: Interestingly enough, I am not a lifelong bachelor. I’ve actually never “not lived with a woman” until this year. I’ve had 2 wives, many mistresses; friends who were lovers, lovers who were friends etc….but Its only in the last few years that I really started crunching the data, and really began to “get” women.

I have to ask: are you being sarcastic when you say you’ve been a lifelong bachelor, and therefore feel like an authority on the subject of marriage? (as in “you dodged that bullet” ?) It’s sometimes hard to tell if things in print are serious, or “tongue in cheek”. Anyway, you sound like a great guy, and you make a lot of supportive posts to guys on this forum, but I think our difference of opinion regarding sexual strategy is likely a product of very different life experiences.